Dr. Bob Hieronimus, Ph.D., is host of the talk radio program 21^st Century Radio (http://www.21stCenturyRadio.com) and his media company Hieronimus & Co. has supplied guests and ideas to CNN, ABC Radio, C-Span, PBS, The Larry King Show and dozens of leading U.S. publications and newspapers. Dr. Hieronimus is also a leading authority on the Yellow Submarine movie and his efforts to document the creation and history of the movie have brought many of the original writers, directors and animators together for annual reunions. His upcoming book It Was All In The Mind: The Co-Creation of The Beatles Yellow Submarine will no doubt be the ultimate book for fans of the movie.

A.C.: What was your initial interest in the movie Yellow Submarine?

B.H.: I first experienced Yellow Submarine at one of our local Baltimore theaters, and I must say for the first 40 minutes of my first viewing I was very confused! I had gone in like many others, I believe, expecting to enjoy another "Beatles" film with their lively north England humor and "scouse" accents. Not realizing it was a full length animated production, I kept wondering when the live Beatles would appear. Eventually I controlled my impatience when I saw unfolding before me a familiar storyline that was associated with other classics like Alice in Wonderland and Wizard of Oz. Suddenly I was overwhelmed with the genius of The Beatles. I mean, I knew they were great musicians, but I had no idea that they were such sage philosophers and artists to create such a film as this! In 1968 I was already a serious student of symbolism, and on that day, I sat through several viewings of the Yellow Submarine , growing more and more convinced there had been a conscious purpose behind the use of various symbols, the characters and the storyline. So I became inspired to find out how The Beatles had come up with such a combination of beautiful design, vibrant color, fantastic music and mystic symbolism. It wasn't until many years later that I fully accepted the fact that The Beatles had not created this masterpiece and determined to find out who did.

A.C.: A few well-known artists of the day have been linked to the animation style used in Yellow Submarine - can you unravel the names and mysteries behind this?

B.H.: Ask the average American who designed Yellow Submarine Art, and many will mistakenly tell you it was American pop artist Peter Max. There is a similarity between the styles of Max and the true father of Yellow Submarine Art, Heinz Edelmann, but a close examination will reveal that Max's style is definitely lacking the careful line and clever wit behind Edelmann's designs for Yellow Submarine. For the past thirty years Max has been erroneously introduced at personal appearances and in the media as the creator of Yellow Submarine , when in reality, he was thousands of miles away and had absolutely no input into it. Producer Al Brodax denies it, but Peter Max insists that Brodax tried to hire him to design Yellow Submarine before he had even heard of Edelmann, and for this reason Max believes his style influenced the direction of the film. On the other hand, some will say that Max was influenced by Yellow Submarine Art, rather than the other way around. He certainly benefitted by the advertising industry's embracing of the format through the 1970s. In fact, some of the most successful spawns of Yellow Submarine Art were Terry Gilliam's style of animation used on Monty Python's Flying Circus, the Peter Max empire, and the 7-Up commercials using a green submarine. At the 40th San Francisco International Film Festival in May of 1997, Bay Area film professionals were asked to name their favorite international films, and the creator of Toy Story and A Bug's Life, John Lasseter, chose Yellow Submarine. The popular 90s rock band, Oasis, produced an animated video for All Around the World that deliberately resembled the animation used on Yellow Submarine, according to its creators, Jonathan Dayton and Valerie Farris.

A.C.: You yourself have created murals that are very colorful and interesting, "The Apocalypse" at the Johns Hopkins University (Baltimore), and "E Pluribus Unum" at the Lexington Market (Baltimore). Did the animation style of Yellow Submarine influence your work?

B.H.: Well, since I began the Johns Hopkins murals in August of 1968, and didn't see the Yellow Submarine until November 1968, I can say there was no direct influence. In fact, before the murals, I had been painting bodies and automobiles (1966-1968) using the same symbols that are found in my murals. I will admit, however, that in almost all the murals I have painted ever since, I have somehow managed to work a Yellow Submarine into the design (including the most recent one at Johns Hopkins, "With a Little Help From Our Friends").

A major difference between my work and most other art work of 1968-69 was that my work was symbolic, didactic and related personal and societal cultural symbols. On one VW bus I painted, for example, I painted dollar signs to symbolize the worship of money; 'Coca-Cola' to symbolize non-food; 'Chiquita Banana' to symbolize the corporate control over agriculture and Banana Republics; and 'General Motors' to symbolize the combustion engines that are poisoning all life. This is the same VW bus that attended Woodstock (without me) and the Associated Press photograph of it appeared on front pages across America. My work was meant as a warning about the military industrial complex or the dark side of the force. I do not do "art for art's sake." I would sacrifice the aesthetic to the message, always.

A.C.: You offered a course at The Maryland Institute College of Art in the Summer of 1974 which analyzed Yellow Submarine. Tell us a bit about the course and the students' involvement.

B.H.: The purpose of the course was to examine the parallels that existed (consciously or unconsciously) in the underlying story of the Yellow Submarine and various symbolical, allegoric, mythological and esoteric systems. These coincidences suggest they fulfill "meta-needs" which is also why people just feel drawn to them. Registration for the two credit course was poor, but their response to my presentations was surprising. I learned there were many art students willing to study and speculate on the works of Carl G. Jung, Rollo May, and Joseph Campbell in regards to The Beatles animation epic Yellow Submarine. Thinking artists. I was surprised by that.

A.C.: When did you begin researching the creation of the movie and the people involved in its creation?

B.H.: I began researching the creation of the movie and those who co-created it around 1990, just after the film's 20th anniversary short-lived video release. My full-time job of radio talk show broadcaster at once made the task of tracking down and interviewing the many co-creators* both easier and more difficult. Although I was able to begin a radio series of ongoing Yellow Submarine specials featuring interviews with new co-creators as I discovered them, I was also hindered when I determined I had enough material to put together a book of the findings. My schedule for the past 10-plus years has required me to broadcast 6-7 days a week on topics only tangently related to the Beatles' Yellow Submarine.

My first interview was with Animation Director Bob Balser on June 16, 1991, and others with Heinz Edelmann, John Coates, Al Brodax and Jack Stokes soon followed.

*Note I always use the term "co-creators" when I talk about the people who contributed to the film, Yellow Submarine, in order to acknowledge its entirely collaborative effort.

A.C.: How did you go about tracking down all of the various people associated with the movie?

B.H.: In 1991 I had just completed a series of interviews and personal meetings with June Foray, the voice of Rocky J. Squirrel and half the other characters in the Rocky and Bullwinkle television show. (June also did the Rocky voice for the new feature length Rocky and Bullwinkle film!) June knew Bob Balser since they are both Members of The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, and so we have Rocky the Squirrel to thank for starting us on our road to the Yellow Submarine! Each time we interviewed someone new, of course, they turned us on to several others who they were still in contact with. Many of the contacts came from TVC of London and John Coates and Norman Kauffman.

We were granted our first in a still ongoing series of interviews with Sir George Martin in October 1995, when he granted us one of very few interviews about The Beatles Anthology (ABC News Radio even paid us to broadcast a portion of it in their news bites to promote the Anthology). Derek Taylor also decided to grant us an interview during this very busy time period for Apple, in November 1995. I had first met Derek in 1987 in the USA, and had maintained contact with him, but since he insisted that he had little new to tell me about the Yellow Submarine we talked mostly about how the Anthology came to be.

A.C.: Are any of these people currently active in film production and do you know of any who moved on to other well-known projects?

B.H.: Music Director, Sir George Martin, is probably the best known, and I need not recount his accomplishments for this reading audience! Also well known is the fact that one of the screenplay writers, Professor Erich Segal, followed up his success on Yellow Submarine with the even more successful novel, Love Story, which was turned into the blockbuster film starring Ryan O'Neal and Ali McGraw. The production company that put Yellow Submarine together, TVC London, is very well known in the United Kingdom, for following Yellow Submarine with several award-winning and popular features. Some of their titles include THE LION, THE WITCH AND THE WARDROBE, sequences of HEAVY METAL, THE SNOWMAN (winner of the British Academy Award, the European Prix Jeunnesse and an Oscar nomination), WHEN THE WIND BLOWS, sequences of THE WORLD OF PETER RABBIT & FRIENDS, THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS, and FAMOUS FRED (also nominated for an Oscar and winner of the British Academy Award and the Grand Prix at the Annecy Animation Festival). In fact, many of the artists who worked on Yellow Submarine continued to work with TVC on these very productions, and others who went freelance post-Submarine were just as successful. And another of the screenplay writers, Jack Mendelsohn, has been responsible for a great deal of the comedy both live and animated we've seen on television since the 1970s. His credits include everything from LAUGH-IN and THE CAROL BURNETT SHOW to MUPPET BABIES and NINJA TURTLES. The voice actor who played Paul McCartney in Yellow Submarine, Geoffrey Hughes, has found noteriety in the United Kingdom by playing Archie Bunker type characters in several popular television series over there.

A.C.: Who or what were the best references for your material? (people or document used?)

B.H.: There was almost no written source material available when I started, so the most helpful for me were the various scripts and versions of the scripts that I collected. Some of them I purchased from the collector's market while others were sent to me by the co-creators, and when I compared them I started getting sound ideas about how the final film had evolved.

The most important personal interviews I did were those with Heinz Edelmann, Charlie Jenkins, Bob Balser, Jack Stokes, Al Brodax and Erich Segal. I consider the most reliable source to be Heinz Edelmann, who may have been the most reluctant to talk at first, but once he got started, turned out to be a wealth of detailed information! Most everyone I talked to agreed on certain important points, but on others opinions varied widely. It took several interviews with each person to reactivate memories and compare notes.

A.C.: There were quite a number of companies involved in the production of the movie, can you give us an overview of the hierarchy and interaction between the various partners?

B.H.: This is a very complicated story, so I'll try to give you the thumbnail version of it here. Al Brodax worked for King Features, who were, of course, producing the very successful Beatles Saturday morning cartoon series for ABC from 1966 to 1968. He was aware that The Beatles were obligated by contract to United Artists to one more film, but were having a great deal of difficulty deciding on a script. Thanks to his masterful producer abilities, Brodax convinced Beatles manager, Brian Epstein, to let him make the third film for United Artists as an animated feature. Brodax then returned to TVC London, who had been subcontracted by King Features to do the television series, and hired them again to produce the feature film.

A.C.: A number of characters in the movie are based on real people, can you tell us a bit about how they became part of the movie? (Real photos used and Blue Meanies are King Features people, etc.)

B.H.: Even Al Brodax will admit that the Chief Blue Meanie's countenance resembled that of his King Features Production Coordinator, Abe Goodman (although all the co-creators agree that in person, Abe Goodman was completely unlike the Chief Blue Meanie, and a most likable, helpful gentleman). Many of the co-creators I interviewed remembered Edelmann creating the entire population of Blue Meanies out of frustration with the King Features people who were hampering the "artistic license" they desired to take with the film. Others, however, pointed out the Mousketeer beanies and noted how they were an obvious swipe at the dominance of Disney.

Special Effects director, Charlie Jenkins, made sure that over a dozen of the co-creators were featured as cameo appearances in the film, most of them appearing as the lonely people in the "Eleanor Rigby" sequence. In fact, all of the real photographic images of people seen anywhere in the film, are of someone who either worked on or around the film. My book and journal, of course, gives names and identities to all these faces.

A.C.: It has been stated that many of the people who worked on the film have been reluctant to talk about their involvement. Did you find it difficult to get these people to discuss their roles?

B.H.: Not as difficult as many have before or since, for some reason. Heinz Edelmann, the most important person to the film (and it turns out, with one of the most detailed memories) was the most vehement about not ever wanting to talk about Yellow Submarine again. He had very good reasons not to want to relive that period in his life, because oddly enough it had caused him enormous stress, financial strain, adversely affected his eyesight for life, and set him years back in the commissions he relied on to make his living. Edelmann also did not relish the idea of being forever connected to a style which he had immediately outgrown, and which all critics will agree is miles from his best work.

There was also a "dark underbelly" of contention and hurt feelings caused by the Submarine that no one wanted to discuss at first. Most of the co-creators are British, and I realized after the third or fourth interviews with them that it was taking several meetings to break down the traditional British reserve and natural tendency to be gentlemanly about any conflicts. No one had good things to say about Apple either, and were concerned about Apple's litigious tendencies. After the word spread that I was writing an historical piece rather than a puff piece or tattle-tale speculation, however, everyone was more forthcoming.

A.C.: The original movie release spawned a tremendous amount of memorabilia that is today a favorite area of collecting for many fans. What is your impression of the collectibility of these items?

B.H.: Answer combined with one below.

A.C.: What is your impression of the new merchandise that came out with the re-release of the movie and are you aware of any future merchandise yet to be released?

B.H.: With one more look back at the best of the classics, I admit that my favorites are not dear to me because of their economic values. I'm a practical Virgo so I'm attracted to the beautiful items that are also useful. My favorites from the '68/'69 vintage line are: the original Corgi Yellow Submarine diecast model toy, because I like to play; the lunch box and thermos, because I like to eat; and the Sheffield alarm clock, so I can organize my life in order to play and eat. No heavy philosophy here! Until 1999, I was being forced to pay insane prices for my favorites ($1,000 for a Corgi in box, $800 for a lunch box and thermos, and $1,500 for a working Sheffield clock!). Today I can buy '99 reproductions of all of these items that are just as beautiful and well made, and much more affordable.

A common complaint among many of the '99-00 licensees was that it took so long to get approval that they missed the coattails of the release of the renovated film. Then with Apple's decision to limit the theatrical release of the renovated film and keep it from general release meant that some of these companies couldn't possibly make a profit. Again the fear of Apple was obvious as all who complained asked not to be identified.

The Todd McFarlane figures were perhaps the most economically successful of those produced in '99-00 and they plan to continue their line of Yellow Submarine figures in the Fall of 2000. Among the least expensive items, I prefer the Comic Images trading card set because they actually produced cels from the film. Vandor's ceramic Yellow Submarine cookie jars, lunch boxes, salt and pepper shakers and bathroom accessories I play with daily. The higher end limited edition cels by American Royal arts are excellent, and I always enjoy playing with Gartlan USA's figurines while lounging in Sterling's inflatable chair.

In my opinion, most of the '99-00 items will never become as valuable as the '68-69 items for the obvious reason of the shift in the collectibility market between now and then. Also very influential in sales is Apple's decision not to put the renovated film on general theater release, which kept most of the general public from knowing that the film was again available. If and when Apple changes its mind and gives the renovated film the release and publicity campaign it deserves, there is no doubt that the values of the '99-00 items will simultaneously increase, but I doubt they will ever hit the extremes of the earlier items since collectors today are immediately aware of the potential future value of their "investments" whereas lunchbox purchasers of 1968-69 were just looking for something to keep their lunch from getting banged up.

A.C.: Do you have plans for future Yellow Submarine anniversary parties?

B.H.: When the book is published we plan to reunite the co-creators of the film and give each a copy of the book. Yes, of course, this film is a part of Beatles history, but my book is really the co-creators' story. As before with the two other anniversary parties we've helped organize, we'll work together with TVC's John Coates and Norman Kauffman on the next one.

A.C.: Tell us a bit about your upcoming book It Was All In The Mind: The Co-Creation of The Beatles' Yellow Submarine. What topics are you covering and when will it be released?

B.H.: After I got over the shock that The Beatles were not the slightest bit responsible for this great film, I began to realize the story of its actual co-creators was a "little engine that could" tale of inspiration. Not only did it deserve to be told as a non-covered part of Beatles-history, but also to shine the spotlight on the hardworking co-creators who had been practically ignored for thirty years. It is a tale of the artists vs. the suits, and how for once, the little guys prevailed, at great costs of near bankruptcy, broken marriages, and failing health.

Sir George Martin wrote the introduction to my book and noted that "the story of its creation told here by Robert Hieronimus is almost as dramatic and as fascinating as the story of the Beatles themselves."

Erich Segal wrote the foreword in which he said, "he has created something more significant than perhaps even he himself realizes... This is probably a more important work than the film it documents."

It should be released in about one year. Finding the right publisher was a journey in itself, since most were merely interested in a coffee-table style book with 90% illustration and 10% text. In the meantime, Hieronimus & Co. published a Yellow Submarine Journal, 56 pages, full color, of excerpts from my book, which is still available. Special offer for Beatlology readers who can order it for $7.50 including postage (a $3.00 savings) from Hieronimus & Co. P.O. Box 648, Owings Mills, MD 21117.

A.C.: Is there anything you would like to have in your book that has as yet been unattainable?

B.H.: Despite dozens of requests and several promises, I have as yet not been granted a direct interview with any of The Beatles. Fortunately, Apple released extensive quotes from the three in which they expounded on their feelings about the film then and now, but I would have asked them a few more specific and less obvious questions. On the other hand, just as I was glad that none of them decided to attend the Liverpool premiere of the renovated film in August 1999 since their presence would have detracted the spotlight from the actual heroes of the film, I feel the same way about being unable to interview them directly for the book. Their contribution to the film itself was so minimal that their lack of commentary on it is almost irrelevant.

A.C.: What other Yellow Submarine projects/interviews are you currently working on?

B.H.: Check our website at www.21stCenturyRadio.com/yellowsubmarine.html for publishing updates on my book, contests to win prizes of the 1999/2000 Yellow Submarine memorabilia, and new postings of excerpts from my book, interviews with the co-creators and etc.